[Rd] [External] Re: Update on rtools4 and ucrt support

[Avraham Adler]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 12:47 AM Simon Urbanek <simon.urbanek using r-project.org>
wrote:

> Avi,
>
> please see the announcement:
>
>
> https://developer.r-project.org/Blog/public/2021/03/12/windows/utf-8-toolchain-and-cran-package-checks/index.html
>
> the documentation is in
>
>
> https://svn.r-project.org/R-dev-web/trunk/WindowsBuilds/winutf8/ucrt3/howto.html
>
> Cheers,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2021, at 8:34 AM, Avraham Adler <avraham.adler using gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:09 PM <luke-tierney using uiowa.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021, Duncan Murdoch wrote:
>
> On 23/08/2021 8:15 a.m., jan Vitek via R-devel wrote:
>
> Hi Jeroen,
>
> I mostly lurk on this list, but I was struck by your combative tone.
>
> To pick on two random bits:
>
> … a 6gb tarball with manually built things on his personal machine…
>
>
> … a black-box system that is so opaque and complex that only one person
> knows how it works, and would make it much more difficult for
> students, universities, and other organisations to build R packages
> and libraries on Windows…
>
>
>
> Tomas’ tool chain isn't a blackbox, it has copious documentation (see
>
> [1])
>
> and builds on any machine thanks to the provided docker container.
>
> This is not to criticise your work which has its unique strengths, but
>
> to
>
> state the obvious: these strengths are best discussed without passion
> based on factually accurate descriptions.
>
>
> I agree with Jan.  I'm not sure a discussion in this forum would be
>
> fruitful,
>
> but I really wish Jeroen and Tomas would get together, aiming to merge
>
> their
>
> toolchains, keeping the best aspects of both.
>
> I haven't been involved in the development of either one, but have been
>
> a
>
> "victim" of the two chain rivalry, because the rgl package is not easy
>
> to
>
> build.  I get instructions from each of them on how to do the build, and
> those instructions for one toolchain generally break the build on the
>
> other
>
> one.  While it is probably possible to detect the toolchain and have the
> build adapt to whichever one is in use, it would be a lot easier for me
>
> (and
>
> I imagine every other maintainer of a package using external libs) if I
>
> just
>
> had to follow one set of instructions.
>
> Duncan Murdoch
>
>
> Here are just a few comments from my perspective (I am an R-core
> member, but am not part of the CRAN team and do only very limited work
> on Windows). Other R-core members may have different perspectives and
> insights.
>
> One bit of background: dealing with encoding issues on Windows has
> been taking an unsustainable amount of R-core resources for some time
> now. Tomas Kalibera has been taking the lead on trying to address
> these issues in the existing framework, but this means he has not had
> the time to make any of the many other valuable and important
> contributions he could make. The only viable way forward is to move to
> a Windows tool chain that supports UTF-8 as the C library current
> encoding via the Windows UCRT framework.
>
> Tomas Kalibera has, on behalf of all of R core and in
> coordination with CRAN, been looking for a way forward for some
> time and has reported on the progress in several blog posts at
> https://developer.r-project.org/Blog/public/. This has lead to
> the development of the MXE-based UCRT tool chain, which is now
> well tested and ready for deployment.  Checks using the UCRT tool
> chain have been part of the CRAN check process for a while. I
> believe CRAN plans to switch R-devel checks and builds to the
> UCRT tool chain during the upcoming CRAN downtime. I expect there
> will be some communication from CRAN on this soon, including on
> any issues in supporting binaries for both R-devel and R-patched.
>
> In putting together something as large as a tool chain there will
> always be many choices, each with advantages and disadvantages.  Some
> things may be advantages in some settings and not others. Taking just
> one case in point: Cross compilation. This is likely to be a better
> approach for CRAN in the future and is supported by the MXE framework
> on which the new tool chain is based.
>
> The much more recent changes in rtools4 to support UCRT are at this
> point not yet as well tested as the new tool chain. Once these changes
> to rtools4 mature, and if binary compatibility can be assured, then
> having a second tool chain may be useful in some cases.  But if there
> are incompatibilities then it will be up to rtools4 to keep up with
> the tool chain used by CRAN. On the other, contributing to improving
> the MXE-based tool chain may be a better investment of time.
>
> Best,
>
> luke
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> R-devel using r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
>
>
> --
> Luke Tierney
> Ralph E. Wareham Professor of Mathematical Sciences
> University of Iowa                  Phone:             319-335-3386
> Department of Statistics and        Fax:               319-335-3017
>    Actuarial Science
> 241 Schaeffer Hall                  email:   luke-tierney using uiowa.edu
> <luke-tierney using uiowa.edu>
> Iowa City, IA 52242                 WWW:  http://www.stat.uiowa.edu
>
>
> Thank you, Dr. Tierney. However, I am concerned about the not-insignificant
> number of us who for various reasons can only do our development on
> Windows. Rtools has been the official tool chain with which to build
> windows for the at least 20 years I have been using R (yes, a babe in the
> woods compared to most, but not a complete neophyte). Duncan and Jereoen
> have each done yeoman’s jobs in ensuring that R can be built from source on
> Windows and that packages can be developed for all OSS on Windows—even
> Solaris SPARC.
>
> I am much less aware of Thomas’s work, and I’ll gladly take the blame for
> it, but I haven’t seen an accessible tool chain built by him which would
> allow me, the Windows developer, to build R and all packages from source on
> a native Windows box. Have I just missed it? If not, is that planned? If
> R-core switches the official Windows toolchain, where does that leave us?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Avi
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>
>
Thank you, Simon. That was valuable. Skimming that quickly, I get a bit
concerned. I’ve been building from source and then using OpenBLAS in my R
source for many, many years now, and it looks like its support is tenuous
in the experimental chain. Similarly with packages like nloptr, where I
build NLOPT 2.6+ and have adjusted Jelmer’s code for it to work in R for
Windows. I maintain packages with Fortran/OpenMP and Rcpp(Parallel). I hope
that should the decision be made to switch, it will be done when the build
process is more streamlined, especially for some fundamental packages.

That being said, I must take the opportunity again to thank R-core, Tomas,
Jeroen, Duncan among many others who have built an infrastructure that
allows amateur programmers to contribute to the statistical infrastructure.

Thanks again,

Avi
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

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