[R] absurd computiation times of lme
bates at stat.wisc.edu
Tue Oct 15 19:10:20 CEST 2002
Christof Meigen <christof at nicht-ich.de> writes:
> thanks a lot for all your hints. Alas, some problems remain
> Douglas Bates <bates at stat.wisc.edu> writes:
> > But you are also implicitly estimating the random effects for each
> > child. These are sometimes regarded as 'nuisance' parameters but they
> > still need to be estimated, at least implicitly. In this case there
> > would be about 6000 of them (1000 children by 6 random effects per
> > child).
> I'm aware of that, and would not dare to estimate these parameters
> independently per child, since I would be overfitting the data.
> But I thought one could use lme to constain this flexibility by
> using information derived from the rest of the population. If this would
> only mean subtracting the mean curve, I woulnd't need lme, would I:
I don't think I said that it was as simple as subtracting the mean
curve. Mixed-effects models do perform a type of regularization of
the individual estimates but this is not as simple as subtracting the
> > There is a big difference when fitting random effects between adding
> > parameters in the fixed effects, which are estimated from all the
> > data, and adding parameters in the random effects, which are estimated
> > from the data for one subject.
> Does this really mean that the estimates for the random effects are
> totally independent from the rest of the data?
Once again, I didn't say the estimates were totally independent from
the rest of the data. What I was trying to say is that adding
several, possibly correlated, random effects for each subject adds
much more complexity than does adding parameters to the fixed effects.
> So, if my random effect is flexible enough to model more or less any
> curve, this "any" curve will be fitted to the data no matter how
> unlikely it is (looking at the rest of the population) and how
> little data is availiable on this subject?
Modelling with random effects causes some 'shrinkage to the mean'
relative to fitting each subject's data separately. However, if you
are going to estimate a large number of random effects and their
variances and their covariances you need to have a large amount of
data for each subject and it will take a long time.
> The point is that the inclusion criterium for the children is that
> they have _at least_ measurments in each quarter, but some have
> measurements every month or so. I thought lme would be a good
> way to deal with this difference in the amount of information available.
> > I would recommend that you start with a spline model for the fixed
> > effects but use either a simple additive shift for the random effects
> > (random = ~1|Subject) or an additive shift and a shift in the time
> > trend (random = ~ age | Subject). You simply don't have enough data
> > to estimate 6 parameters from the data for each child.
> Bad enough, this is for an PhD (luckily not mine) about growth
> velocity. The medical Prof sees no problem, saying: when you
> have two measurements you have a growth velocity for the timepoint
> right between these measurements.
> I think this is a bad approach and suggested to smooth the curves
> before. The approach of using (random = ~ age | Subject) or,
> as seen from looking at the log's, better (random = ~ age^0.15 | Subject),
> works as expected, but gives fits which are sometimes as far as
> 3 cm from the real measurements (while the measurement error
> is assumed to be about 0.5cm). These unusual decelerations are
> exactly what the wannabe-PhD is interested in.
> Finally, the argument with the "too little data" does not apply
> to the set-up with with Berkeley Boys, with each one 31 measurements,
> where a 7-parameters spline basis random effect wouldn't converge
> within several hours.
If you have 7 parameters in the random effects and a general
variance-covariance matrix (i.e. symmetric, positive-definite but with
no further constraints on its form) there are seven variances and 21
covariances to estimate. Optimization is with respect to another
parameterization but it still has dimension 28 in this case. Roughly
speaking, optimization problems have exponential complexity and it
does not surprise me that this would take a very long time. You must
ask yourself if you think that the ways in which these growth curves
differ has that great a dimensionality. In most cases I think it is a
more effective modeling strategy to start with a few random effects
and check residuals to see if the model needs to be made more complex
instead of starting with an overly complex model.
As Peter suggested, if you feel that lme is inadequate for your
purposes we invite you to write better software.
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